Curse

Dr Strangelove · Dec 31, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

To make it a bit more clear, I didn't say Mantra of Earth (MOE) specifically because it is a Mesmer spell. Let's not add other professions here for a second.

To reiterate, an earth ele using the 4-skills for "management and defence" (say..Earth Attunement, Aura of Resto, StoneFlesh, Armor of Earth) can easily counter any direct fire damage from ANY fire ele build (yes, burning will still occur from SF/GG but it's not a big deal).

For ranged offense, use Ebon Hawk, followed by Glowstone (repeatedly) and throw Stone Daggers (very quick) and one elite (Obsidian Flesh/Sandstorm).

It won't take too long before the fire ele gives up and disconnects OR goes down shamelessly.

Are you still confused???

So... to summarize, an ele with tons of defense that pumps out a piddling amount of damage is somehow better than a highly offensive midline player that can kill more than a 60 AL dummy.

Right.

mage767 · Dec 31, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

So... to summarize, an ele with tons of defense that pumps out a piddling amount of damage is somehow better than a highly offensive midline player that can kill more than a 60 AL dummy.

Right.

I'm not surprised by your response. In fact, I have seen so many sneers from players who don't understand the proper use of Earth spells, especially how powerful (this includes damage inflicted) the earth spells can be.

Well, I don't want to argue with someone who didn't even play the build. Why don't you look at the damage potential first? Having played just about most ele builds (unlocked everything in all 3 worlds), I can frankly proclaim that earth eles will always be the last ones standing in an Elemental Royal Rumble!

Dr Strangelove · Dec 31, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I'm not surprised by your response. In fact, I have seen so many sneers from players who don't understand the proper use of Earth spells, especially how powerful (this includes damage inflicted) the earth spells can be.

Well, I don't want to argue with someone who didn't even play the build. Why don't you look at the damage potential first? Having played just about most ele builds (unlocked everything in all 3 worlds), I can frankly proclaim that earth eles will always be the last ones standing in an Elemental Royal Rumble!

What's the point of being the last one standing if all your teammates are dead? Were you going to kill their entire team with stone daggers? The real strengths of earth eles are wards, sandstorm, and ganking, which always includes sliver armor and some assassin mojo.

1v1 /= anything important.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 31, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Dr, I would just give up on him, he's a lost cause, methinks he is just here to say "Earth Eles PWNZOR J00!" repeatedly..

mage767 · Dec 31, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

Dr, I would just give up on him, he's a lost cause, methinks he is just here to say "Earth Eles PWNZOR J00!" repeatedly..

You are absolutely correct!

Furthermore, it is time I give up on you too since it has taken too much of my time explaining why earth spells are misunderstood by elementalists, less than optimally used, badly managed and so on.

P.S. Being the last man standing is an honor only a select few like myself enjoy.

P.S.S. Please learn to write proper english since this is not your high-school english test.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 31, 2006, 09:21 AM // 09:21

last man standing hmm.. you don't know about last man standing, my dervish has enjoyed that many a times. and I don't need a bloody explanation from you. Along with that I do know proper English bud. the quotes were to signify what YOU would say in "N00b speak" and methinks is a correct word.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 31, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

You are absolutely correct!

Furthermore, it is time I give up on you too since it has taken too much of my time explaining why earth spells are misunderstood by elementalists, less than optimally used, badly managed and so on.

P.S. Being the last man standing is an honor only a select few like myself enjoy.

P.S.S. Please learn to write proper english since this is not your high-school english test.

Thank you so much for gracing me with your excellencies supreme understanding of the importance of tanking without dealing damage. Shall your excellency's next pearls of wisom be dispensed on why mending/healing hands wammos are > all?

mage767 · Dec 31, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Thank you so much for gracing me with your excellencies supreme understanding of the importance of tanking without dealing damage. Shall your excellency's next pearls of wisom be dispensed on why mending/healing hands wammos are > all?

Honestly, I wasn't even talking to you.

mage767 · Dec 31, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

last man standing hmm.. you don't know about last man standing, my dervish has enjoyed that many a times. and I don't need a bloody explanation from you. Along with that I do know proper English bud. the quotes were to signify what YOU would say in "N00b speak" and methinks is a correct word.

Just like it takes one thief to know another, only a noob can identify with and write like another. Sorry fellow, but the debate is over - you are the noob, not I. I highly disparage the use of such sleazy language as continual use can lead to serious social labeling of oneself.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 31, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

*chuckles* and condescension only puts you in a lower position than the one you have condescended upon.

mage767 · Dec 31, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

*chuckles* and condescension only puts you in a lower position than the one you have condescended upon.

Bilateral condescensional cha-cha cannot be singly directed like the ebb of a wave, so I'm not sure if I should cheer or sneer at your comment.

Cow Tale · Dec 31, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

ure all pathetic! my mini pet is always last one standing no matter what fools! XD

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Dec 31, 2006, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cow Tale

ure all pathetic! my mini pet is always last one standing no matter what fools! XD

*cracks up* lol dude I love it, hey what mini pet do you have anyway? I'm still hoping to get a bone dragon and make a pretty penny. btw nice avatar thing.

lactatemike · Dec 31, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Gimme,
So now a threat to RA and HA constitutes a crisis for guild vs guild battles?! Please, I would LOVE to know how often a searing flames team goes out and annihilates the guild lord so incredibly fast that SF needs to be fixed so as to not throw the ladder out of whack! The ONLY build even close to threatening that is the E/D stoneflesh build.
Yeah, I know what PvP and GvG are, and I know what influences what. I'm sure you do as well, but your reply to my last is a far stretch of how PvP, not GvG, is more important. I agree, in all sincerity, that guild battles in Guild Wars are going to be more important than pve, but RA/HA is a purely lateral transition. Sure, similar mechanics as GvG, but not quite the same weight.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 31, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10069271 That is for you lactate. Also, you misunderstood my post. I was saying why PvP is by far more important that PvE, not that searing flames is necessarily overpowered in GvG (I don't GvG that much, but in that thread the hardcore GvGers are complaining about it, so I'll leave it up to them). Also, while IMO it is probably less overpowered in GvG, it is overpowered in HA, RA, and TA, and HA is supposed to be a high level PvP arena.

To the people who say you can easily counter SF with an RC or something, I laughed. It has a 2 second recharge, and even factoring in glowing gaze, RC cannot begin to touch the spread of the burning when there are 4 or 6 of them on the opposing team.

@mage: for the last time, this is not earth ele vs. fire ele. This is four (ok, not that many people care about TA but there are a few guilds based on it), six (HA), or eight (GvG) man teams. You do not bring an earth ele tank, mending wammo, or 55 monk into any of the above situations. The issue in these games is not who is the last man standing.

I copied this quote from another poster (Bankai) on another thread about counters:

Quote:

Alright, some post coming up.

I was just reading this, and something caught my eye. Someone said the counters were really obscure. And that made me think back to the thread "Melee is too easily countered". I wrote quite some post on the difference between Melee and Caster shutdown, but I only just realized why SF is giving so many problems.

First, let's look at GW skills from a really objective point of view. You have melee and spells. Melee and Casters. Melee only has offensive Melee. There is no such thing as defensive melee (hit someone to heal them? Hell yeah!). Casters have offensive and defensive casters. Defensive casters prot and heal, offensive casters hex, damage, commit necrophilia, etcetera.

Now, let's look at the ways you can shut down these three types. For Melee, there's weakness (not really a shut down, but still), cripple, blind (best shutdown), and some lame hexes. Casters have Daze, hexes and interrupts. Now, you'll see I said Casters, since they have the same shutdown. And that's the crucial mistake. Since monks are so important, there can NEVER be as hard of a shutdown skill for casters as, for example, Blinding surge. Since Monks are so important, 1 single skill will kill all teams. Therefore, Casters have less viable shutdown than melee.

However, this has never been proved a problem. Monk shutdown is not (extensively) needed, since most of the time you can out-damage them. Sure, a gale and some mesmer hexes are nice, but there isn't a lot of monk shutdown needed. However, noone has also needed effective offensive caster shutdown. Let's look at the FotMs (from the top of my head).
Spirit spam
Iway
Vimway
Bloodspike
Smite
Obs flame spike
SF

The first thing you'll notice is that there's effectively only 3 caster FotMs (and a hybrid, Smite. Talking about AoE smite here). However, the 2 which are old, are spikes. And spikes are really no problem. There's no need for a hard shutdown for spikes. Yes, a gale might be needed, or a shock, to interrupt the spike. But shutdown is not really needed. However, SF is the first caster pressure FotM. And Pressure DOES need shutdown. Pressure casting is comparable to melee. Without any melee shutdown melee is freaking deadly. However, Caster shutdown isn't viable to implement because monks, and all teams with them, will be screwed over.

In the builds he lists he is talking about HA, but you get the point of this post. Also, many of the most effective shutdowns for SF (such as mantra of flame) are SF specific. Sure, there is diversion, e-denial, migraine, etc., but as this post (begins) to go into, those are not truly effective caster shutdowns, as then it would be too easy to shutdown a monk, leading to casting shutdown being overpowered... My point is, the counters can be countered by the monk backline unless you bring a LOT of them (mantra of flame copies on most characters) or you bring a LOT of mesmers/interrupt rangers (have fun trying to kill a team quickly). Does this at least begin to clarify the reasoning behind counters not making it a non-overpowered skill? I did a rather poor job of clarifying it, hope you all understood.

Dutch Masterr · Dec 31, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

stone striker is a waste of an elite in my opinion..

lactatemike · Dec 31, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Gimme, I don't believe I misunderstood your post. What I meant in my retort was that PvP is like a little testing ground for GvG, but does not and should not carry the same importance on balance of skills. GvG, as you said, is right in theme with even the name of the game, and it is a form of PvP, but it is a modified form. Random arenas and even places where you can put your team together are not possibly going to be as challenging or come even close to reaching the same skill level as GvG, because guild members are more tight-knit and work together more productively. That is a very important distinguishment between GvG and other forms of PvP in this game. Because GvG and the other forms of PvP are so different, though, I believe that saying they are BOTH much more important than PvE is inaccurate. Only one of the two is, and that is GvG.

As far as what is discussed in the link, (Thank you for that, btw.) Searing Flames is not really considered a threat by most of the GvG'ers that are hard core. (Read more than the last page. I'd recommend all 8.) The common feeling is that people have gotten so used to only feeling pressure from warriors that the pendulum is a tad too far to the side and needs to come back to center again.

Some of the counters to SF are only SF specific, but as with anything, a balanced team has no problem with it. Something else that needs to be taken into consideration when discussing counters of this build: strategy. Of course for every person to be able to stand toe to toe with an SF ele they would all have to carry some sort of high armor vs fire or other such great buff. On the other hand, though, if you stay spread out and take out targets when viable, you can wipe a little AL 60 squishie out incredibly quickly.

It is true that to add too much into anti-caster would throw everything quite out of balance. This skill, however, only helps to bring caster damage back into the picture. And this still only provides one good build for it. Back before ele's were killed you could apply this kind of pressure from all sorts of ele builds.

NinjaKai · Dec 31, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

stone striker is a waste of an elite in my opinion..

Stone Striker is a normal skill. Your thinking of Stone Sheath.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 31, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

HA is another form of high level PvP, and is considered by many to be almost as important as GvG. SF is highly out of balance there (well, really everything is, which I blame on 6v6). I realize that the consensus is not that it is all that unbalanced, but it is definitely the most powerful ele skill, and largely out of COMPARISON with all the other ele damage skills. Yes, you can stand up to it and beat it, but is it really balanced...?

Francis Crawford · Dec 31, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Edit: NinjaKai said the same thing first.